SA
I’m so grateful to be here with you both this morning. To begin, can you both describe the current state of your spirit, using 5 words?
L
1. Anticipating 2. Calm 3. Uncertain 4. Hopeful 5. Changing
W
Wow. (1) Conflicted (2) In-transformation (3) Shaken up (4) Expansive (5) Calm
SA
Thank you. I’ve really been feeling that contradictory energy of hope vs conflict over the past few weeks as well. How did you both arrive working alongside and within the Debt Collective?
L
Yes me as well, I feel we are in a moment of such opportunity but also the unknowing and uncertainty is very present. I agree with Winter on our spirits containing that complexity and also finding ways to center ourselves within that. However tricky and difficult it may be. Me as well, I’ve never done an interview like this before. I’m actually sitting here listening to frequency as we type. My journey with the Debt Collective began last year, I started in July. It was a very transitional period in my life starting off with intense moments of awakening. I left the ‘comfortable’ but unhappy non-profit job that I felt constrained to and started expanding more into movement work around housing. A fellow coworker of mine and I would often meditate together and promise each other that we’d leave together and start fresh elsewhere. She told me about the position within the Debt Collective – which was a local community organizer in Philadelphia, I applied (also upon leaving the non-profit applied to so many other things and opportunities kept coming – a fellowship with co-op business development as well as another community building opportunity) and interviewed and got the position. It felt right, and although my parents didn’t agree and I didn’t have their full support I knew it was the right move for me at that stage in my life. I graduated from a Master’s Degree program in International Affairs concentrating on Business Development in Francophone West Africa, with $80k in debt, the Debt Collective opened my eyes to the absurdity of the life I was trying to live and be completely myself in, within a society and workforce that didn’t truly value me. I felt a community of people that were in the same boat and that change was/is possible.
W
I love when our spirits can contain that complexity! Also grateful to be here with you in this new and interesting medium. I’m so intrigued and a little Alice-in-Wonderland feeling. Lol. (And also just want to flag that I’d love to hear more about you and Studio Ānanda if there is time at some point!) In terms of my journey with/in the Debt Collective it’s a long one. I’ve been a “radical” activist since the age of 19 (mostly awakened by 9/11, W Bush, Iraq, etc), and was in NYC when Occupy Wall Street happened. I got really involved, really fast, and ended up helping to launch a student debt strike (the Occupy Student Debt Campaign), which slowly morphed into Strike Debt in 2012-2013 (attempting to bring all forms of debt together & recognize the role debt plays in oppressing and extracting folks around the globe), and when that fell apart I had a major personal crisis, moved to Latin America (!!) and got more into land-based and eco-based movements, shamanism & plants, etc. Coming back to the US I reconnected with my old Strike Debt comrades and heard about the amazing things they had done as the Debt Collective – particularly connecting with low-income and mostly Black and brown for-profit students, leading a debt strike and winning billions in cancellation! When one of the main organizers quit they offered me a paid position, about a year and a half ago. Since then I’ve been helping the org to transform into a more formal union structure, helping to bring on new staff members, lay some infrastructure, helping transmit a decade’s worth of movement experience & research to new members & staff, etc. I should also say I have about $150k in student loans! Lol. And $20k+ in credit card bills – a total mess!
SA
You both have such nuanced and varied journeys that really intersect at this point of constriction. Thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. I only really understood my own position as someone who was indebted when I came to New York to study my masters and took out a 90K loan to do so…
Fariha and I began Studio Ānanda, both as South Asian childhood sexual abuse survivors, really challenging the modern wellness industry and also, all institutions at large that continue to thrive on the mediatization, surveillance, exploitation and indebtedness of people living off center, out of the dominant culture. I was reading something a few weeks ago by MTL + on indebtedness becoming much harsher and complex in the context of occupation, speaking specifically to the experiences of the Palestinian people. And I think it’s so important to draw those lines of connections internationally, across borders. Can you speak to how the dismantling of systematic indebtedness and the lack of financial health is integral in the project of decolonization and holistic healing?
L
Such a very powerful story, and so much that you have overcome, Prinita. Thank you for your openness and vulnerability in sharing. Wow, so for me, dismantling systematic indebtedness and the lack of financial health is one of, if not the most, important part of decolonization and holistic healing. I believe that we are playing and fighting for the liberation of our minds, bodies and spirits. We are really at war with institutions, systems etc. that want to diminish our spirits. The history and mechanisms used within slavery and colonization show us that, and today especially within the context of what is taking place is Palestine it is even more clear. Within the debt collective we say that the real debts are the ones that we owe to one another….all that is being done and has been done to societies to tear them apart, stripping them of their resources, families, livelihoods etc. all of that comes with a cost. In order to heal holistically from these atrocities that continue to happen we have to come together collectively and recognize this past, present, and create a future that does not come with any debt, in the form of money or control as we see it today as well as metaphorically. We owe nothing to these institutions, systems, politicians etc. but we do owe ourselves and each other the collective healing and holistic society that is possible.
W
Prinita I also want to thank you for sharing your story. And just offer my love and solidarity for the traumas that you’ve been through and worked through, and gratitude for transforming that trauma into something powerful and life-affirming. I think that is our work, and thank you for modeling that. It’s honestly so hard to respond to this question (Lauren I love your response!), my brain goes in so many directions, and when I first got involved in the debt movement it was such a heady, intellectual approach and I’m trying to see what my body and spirit feel about this. And honestly one of the biggest impacts I had in the early days of Strike Debt was researching about global debt, and how the early mechanisms of neoliberal institutions like the IMF and World Bank were using money and financialization as this brutal weapon of control and extraction across the Globe in almost every sphere of the earth, and we really began to collectively see that in a sense what was happening in the US was that this logic, born and bred from early experiments with using indebtedness to dispossess indigenous folks in the US and control Black folks post-slavery, this logic was slowly being used on the poor, lower and eventually middle-classes in the US. The contract that the ruling class had with the “white middle-class family” from the 1950s to 70s was being ripped up, and debt offered this way of doing that very subtlety while also using the same mechanism to continue to extract from poor, Black & brown communities. It’s really horrifying to see this logic at play, and MTL+ definitely nails it, and so many Marxist intellectuals helped us make sense of this story. So when I look around at the conditions in the US, I see the same logic wreaking havoc in the lives of people across class, race and gender lines, intensely reinforcing the old, old sense of fear and scarcity we inherit from our pre-human ancestors and mammalian brain. When we are all in debt, when our future energies & labors are “promised” to oppressive institutions, when we see each other as competition to pay our bills and fight for crumbs, how could we possibly have spirits and souls and bodies that are whole, loving, open, generous? A dear friend & comrade of Lauren and mine always talks about the fight against debt & racial capitalism as a fight for time – when we are in debt we have no time because we have too many bills, obligations, on top of all the care work so many are doing & holding, and imo healing, bonding, honestly & vulnerable relationships and repair work take time, trust, and so many other conditions that are impossible in indebted life. So I see a kind of double thing happening, where the debt movement desperately needs to relieve people of these bills, restore a basic sense of public goods and freedom from fear, scarcity, competition, while at the same time even our movements need healing, repair, love. Sorry, a bit of a rant! Lol. Hope this makes some sense.
SA
You’re both making a lot of sense. Fariha and I talk about the way capitalism almost rewires the brain to be conditioned towards a scarcity consciousness, to vilify poverty, dominate people & nature. So what you’re speaking to – not owing the institutions, but owing each other through compassion, grace, love, it really is ancestral healing work. What would you both say to someone reading this who might be located in a more isolated area, where unionizing is not necessarily an option. How can we begin to nourish the seeds of striking debt in our day to day lives?
L
Very tough and spot on questions. I also want to acknowledge the deep ancestral healing work that we find ourselves in the midst of, as well as the traumas within lineages and generations that to me seem to be at the cusp of curse breaking and change, as well as karmic debts that are being unwoven. As far as the question, the first thing that comes to mind for me is the ability for people to say no. Oftentimes when it comes to things like debt or paying bills, these are obligations that we ‘have’ to abide by in order not to get reprimanded, in trouble or even worse being as though it’s what sustains us and our everyday lives under this capitalistic structure. Thus creating isolation. Now when we think about a structure and body such as a union, collective or whatever the case may be, there is greater solidarity in that. Greater solidarity in a collective no, instead of one individual no where there may be fear involved. But knowing that you have the support and backing of tons of other people who feel and think the same coming together to stand up for what is right. For people who may find themselves isolated around this, we can begin to nourish the seeds of striking debt in our day to day lives by consciously feeling within our mind, body and spirit what resonates and what doesn’t. Taking stock of this and knowing that we have the power to control our lives and it should not be determined or dictated by a boss or obligation that we may have been coerced into doing. I’d also say that although these people may feel alone, that there is a consciousness raising occurring and that when one or two people come together and decide that they will no longer stand for terror, peace can be gained no matter how small. Joining a union like the debt collective or starting to have these conversations in community with others can break down and begin to nourish seeds of change and seeds of refusal to continue to play a part in a world leading nowhere and changing the collective trajectory of our lives, connecting in ways we may have never imagined, but forging bonds and connections through relationships and shared experiences that we ALL have since the creation of time, in one way or another. – sorry this may be very abstract lol I get out there.
W
<3 Lauren
Hmm. Prinita I really like/hate (lol) this idea, but I think you’re right – capitalism forms our brains and bodies in that kind of way. Andrew Ross used to make this joke about why debt organizing is so hard to do, he’d always say that in classical “modern” society the “contract” is something sacred (it’s all we have, in some ways?), and so declaring a debt strike is breaking your contract, going back on your word, which in neoliberal society is right up there with the incest taboo. That always stuck with me, and I’ve noticed over the years that when it comes to debt a transformation of consciousness is absolutely essential. Much like in healing work, being able to dissolve the narrative of “I owe X bank X amount of money because I signed a contract” and realize behind that so-called contract is a relationship of coercion, a whole hundreds and thousands year history of power relationships, is huge. Obviously it’s not enough, creditors have tremendous power over our lives, but beginning to make the mental shift like, shit, actually I don’t owe these mother fuckers anything, it’s huge for people, it’s incredibly liberating. From there it simply becomes a question of how to live a life in the day-to-day to adjust to this reality. And your question is a really big one – I want to ground it in my own personal experience – I’ve been on debt strike for nearly a decade – my credit is fucked, my financial life is a mess, I’ve only really survived due to the generosity of comrades – the early version of a debtors union. Literally friends letting me crash, use their name to get cars, etc. This is only possible in community, the power the creditors have is so massive that to truly resist requires first the mental shift and then the community and power building. So for folks who are isolated, our first hope speaking from the union is that they begin to be exposed to a new narrative – say Bernie & Omar saying college should be free and they shouldn’t be in debt, or by reading the Debt Collective book or other narrative interventions, or some kind of virtual space to realize they didn’t do anything wrong, they don’t “actually” owe these institutions anything, and that a different kind of life is possible. But that doesn’t answer the question about how hard it can be to find this community, to actually debt strike, etc. I think we need to ask those questions together. In my experience healing from my personal & ancestral traumas is SSOOOOOO much work, it’s so fucking hard, and often makes me incapable of going to work, of functioning, requiring so much money in professional help – how can people heal when they owe these debts, are so underpaid, exploited, subject to forms of violence, etc? So in some ways I think the debt question is actually an everything question – like we need movements to fight for medicare for all, to relieve global debt, to abolish the IMF & WB, minimum wage, generous care & leave policies, etc. And at the same time, communities in resistance that people can find when and if they are ready to step a little outside of mainstream thinking around finance, individual success, individual property, etc.
SA
Lauren, you mentioned ‘karmic debt’, and Winter, you tell of the space needed to realize that those who are indebted ‘didn’t do anything wrong’ & it’s so so moving to me, because when you do inner child work, the work to reparent yourself, the affirmation you usually repeat is one that encourages you to put down the guilt, the shame, the burden of our lineages. So, yes it really is all interconnected. And I sometimes wonder if, before we’re able to get to the point of a global debt strike, the great awakening needs to happen. Which, I definitely think it is. I feel more and more people are becoming conscious and connecting the dots. So much solidarity to you both.
As we end, can you both share three different rituals or practices that have helped you stay grounded over the past two weeks?
L
The interconnectedness is REAL. We’re caught up in so many timelines, experiences and more that all converge, diverge, separate, come together, split apart and it’s all happening simultaneously at once. I agree with you that more and more people are beginning to awaken and connect the dots, so much solidarity to you <3 for me this pandemic has done that for society in many ways, and there have been so many awakenings and even dark ages throughout time that are revisited so we get it right. I believe and hope and pray that this is now the time but we can only continue to pave the way. Three rituals and practices that have helped me stay grounded and connected the past two weeks have been 1. gardening, getting my hands in the dirt, touching the plants and vegetables, seeing and seeding the growth. 2. listening to frequencies and meditating and envisioning 3. Drinking tea and being in the sun with friends, family and community. Staying grounded is one of my biggest challenges. I find myself always in the cosmos but these are some things that help me along the way.
W
Lol Lauren, the cosmos are so beautiful and magical 🙂
Prinita I love what you shared, you are really on to something there with that connection. I think about Thich Nhat Hanh’s encouragement to lead with love and understanding, and everything else will fall into line. And the judgement card in Tarot — it should be the Jubilee card, for after we win the debt strike and all earthly debts are dissolved! Thank you both for this space, I hope this conversation is only just beginning and looking forward to more collaboration. A researcher here in Philly estimates that if 20% of the global population went on debt strike, it would be enough to throw the capitalist markets into complete chaos. So that is a horizon, the global solidarity to force this system to change its core way of operating, and open up new ways of being for us to explore! In terms of staying grounded, I’ve been absolutely in love with Byron Katie’s “The Work” – her four questions to sit in meditation with to deeply examine unconscious beliefs, I’ve been doing this with internalized inner child beliefs but also my own political beliefs, to keep challenging myself to let go of dogmatic narratives. The second is just laying on my couch and putting on the playlists they use for psychedelic journeys, and just letting my mind wander and relax and my body rest. The third is lighting a candle and praying to my Sicilian & Irish and non-blood ancestors, trying to rebuild that connection. What about you, Prinita?
SA
The past two weeks, waking up at dawn and spending a few hours by myself has been my saviour. I have a lot of trouble staying grounded, my adhd has been sky high lately, so spending time in solitude in the mornings, in prayer and meditation has really been grounding. I’ve also been sleeping really early and taking lots of baths. Trying to find different ways to process the trauma that has been coming up in my body, and it’s been a journey but super rewarding.
L
Just want to thank you so much for this space, time and opportunity, sending you love and strength. Victory will be upon us 🙂 have a wonderful evening. The gratitude is real and I truly hope that we can connect again and collaborate. Peace and love to you both <3:)
W
Likewise, very grateful for this space, Lauren and I have been trying to find spaces to explore the intersection of our healing work with our movement work, and this has been a true pleasure. Thanks & so great to be in community with you, sending you both lots of love for strong and healthy nervous systems and joyful days.
Oh! We probably should say how people can get involved in the Debt Collective, lol. Folks can become a member here: https://debtcollective.org/debt-union/. We have both zero-dollar & dues-paying options, and it’s very early in our union-building so we want folks to get involved and build power & the union together <3
L
And one more thing – a link to rsvp for our new member calls for those interested that join and need a place to be welcomed, oriented and learn more about the union! – https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZYtdu2ppzIiEtyjTH2o_b2ttXc1BJuSwCq-
The Debt Collective is a membership-based union for debtors and our allies. Our current economic system forces us into debt in various different areas of our lives: student debt for education; a mortgage to buy a home; debts for utility bills or phone bills, medical care, or even incarceration. No one should have to go into debt to meet their basic needs! These debts are illegitimate and the system needs to change, and we are united to win that change. How? Through the power of our union.