Tag: financial healing

SA
I’m so grateful to be here with you both this morning. To begin, can you both describe the current state of your spirit, using 5 words?

L
1. Anticipating 2. Calm 3. Uncertain 4. Hopeful 5. Changing 

W
Wow. (1) Conflicted (2) In-transformation (3) Shaken up (4) Expansive (5) Calm 

SA
Thank you. I’ve really been feeling that contradictory energy of hope vs conflict over the past few weeks as well. How did you both arrive working alongside and within the Debt Collective?

L
Yes me as well, I feel we are in a moment of such opportunity but also the unknowing and uncertainty is very present. I agree with Winter on our spirits containing that complexity and also finding ways to center ourselves within that. However tricky and difficult it may be. Me as well, I’ve never done an interview like this before. I’m actually sitting here listening to frequency as we type. My journey with the Debt Collective began last year, I started in July. It was a very transitional period in my life starting off with intense moments of awakening. I left the ‘comfortable’ but unhappy non-profit job that I felt constrained to and started expanding more into movement work around housing. A fellow coworker of mine and I would often meditate together and promise each other that we’d leave together and start fresh elsewhere. She told me about the position within the Debt Collective – which was a local community organizer in Philadelphia, I applied (also upon leaving the non-profit applied to so many other things and opportunities kept coming – a fellowship with co-op business development as well as another community building opportunity) and interviewed and got the position. It felt right, and although my parents didn’t agree and I didn’t have their full support I knew it was the right move for me at that stage in my life. I graduated from a Master’s Degree program in International Affairs concentrating on Business Development in Francophone West Africa, with $80k in debt, the Debt Collective opened my eyes to the absurdity of the life I was trying to live and be completely myself in, within a society and workforce that didn’t truly value me. I felt a community of people that were in the same boat and that change was/is possible.

W
I love when our spirits can contain that complexity! Also grateful to be here with you in this new and interesting medium. I’m so intrigued and a little Alice-in-Wonderland feeling. Lol. (And also just want to flag that I’d love to hear more about you and Studio Ānanda if there is time at some point!) In terms of my journey with/in the Debt Collective it’s a long one. I’ve been a “radical” activist since the age of 19 (mostly awakened by 9/11, W Bush, Iraq, etc), and was in NYC when Occupy Wall Street happened. I got really involved, really fast, and ended up helping to launch a student debt strike (the Occupy Student Debt Campaign), which slowly morphed into Strike Debt in 2012-2013 (attempting to bring all forms of debt together & recognize the role debt plays in oppressing and extracting folks around the globe), and when that fell apart I had a major personal crisis, moved to Latin America (!!) and got more into land-based and eco-based movements, shamanism & plants, etc. Coming back to the US I reconnected with my old Strike Debt comrades and heard about the amazing things they had done as the Debt Collective – particularly connecting with low-income and mostly Black and brown for-profit students, leading a debt strike and winning billions in cancellation! When one of the main organizers quit they offered me a paid position, about a year and a half ago. Since then I’ve been helping the org to transform into a more formal union structure, helping to bring on new staff members, lay some infrastructure, helping transmit a decade’s worth of movement experience & research to new members & staff, etc. I should also say I have about $150k in student loans! Lol. And $20k+ in credit card bills – a total mess!

SA
You both have such nuanced and varied journeys that really intersect at this point of constriction. Thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. I only really understood my own position as someone who was indebted when I came to New York to study my masters and took out a 90K loan to do so… 

Fariha and I began Studio Ānanda, both as South Asian childhood sexual abuse survivors, really challenging the modern wellness industry and also, all institutions at large that continue to thrive on the mediatization, surveillance, exploitation and indebtedness of people living off center, out of the dominant culture. I was reading something a few weeks ago by MTL + on indebtedness becoming much harsher and complex in the context of occupation, speaking specifically to the experiences of the Palestinian people. And I think it’s so important to draw those lines of connections internationally, across borders. Can you speak to how the dismantling of systematic indebtedness and the lack of financial health is integral in the project of decolonization and holistic healing?

L
Such a very powerful story, and so much that you have overcome, Prinita. Thank you for your openness and vulnerability in sharing. Wow, so for me, dismantling systematic indebtedness and the lack of financial health is one of, if not the most, important part of decolonization and holistic healing. I believe that we are playing and fighting for the liberation of our minds, bodies and spirits. We are really at war with institutions, systems etc. that want to diminish our spirits. The history and mechanisms used within slavery and colonization show us that, and today especially within the context of what is taking place is Palestine it is even more clear. Within the debt collective we say that the real debts are the ones that we owe to one another….all that is being done and has been done to societies to tear them apart, stripping them of their resources, families, livelihoods etc. all of that comes with a cost. In order to heal holistically from these atrocities that continue to happen we have to come together collectively and recognize this past, present, and create a future that does not come with any debt, in the form of money or control as we see it today as well as metaphorically. We owe nothing to these institutions, systems, politicians etc. but we do owe ourselves and each other the collective healing and holistic society that is possible. 

W
Prinita I also want to thank you for sharing your story. And just offer my love and solidarity for the traumas that you’ve been through and worked through, and gratitude for transforming that trauma into something powerful and life-affirming. I think that is our work, and thank you for modeling that. It’s honestly so hard to respond to this question (Lauren I love your response!), my brain goes in so many directions, and when I first got involved in the debt movement it was such a heady, intellectual approach and I’m trying to see what my body and spirit feel about this. And honestly one of the biggest impacts I had in the early days of Strike Debt was researching about global debt, and how the early mechanisms of neoliberal institutions like the IMF and World Bank were using money and financialization as this brutal weapon of control and extraction across the Globe in almost every sphere of the earth, and we really began to collectively see that in a sense what was happening in the US was that this logic, born and bred from early experiments with using indebtedness to dispossess indigenous folks in the US and control Black folks post-slavery, this logic was slowly being used on the poor, lower and eventually middle-classes in the US. The contract that the ruling class had with the “white middle-class family” from the 1950s to 70s was being ripped up, and debt offered this way of doing that very subtlety while also using the same mechanism to continue to extract from poor, Black & brown communities. It’s really horrifying to see this logic at play, and MTL+ definitely nails it, and so many Marxist intellectuals helped us make sense of this story. So when I look around at the conditions in the US, I see the same logic wreaking havoc in the lives of people across class, race and gender lines, intensely reinforcing the old, old sense of fear and scarcity we inherit from our pre-human ancestors and mammalian brain. When we are all in debt, when our future energies & labors are “promised” to oppressive institutions, when we see each other as competition to pay our bills and fight for crumbs, how could we possibly have spirits and souls and bodies that are whole, loving, open, generous? A dear friend & comrade of Lauren and mine always talks about the fight against debt & racial capitalism as a fight for time – when we are in debt we have no time because we have too many bills, obligations, on top of all the care work so many are doing & holding, and imo healing, bonding, honestly & vulnerable relationships and repair work take time, trust, and so many other conditions that are impossible in indebted life. So I see a kind of double thing happening, where the debt movement desperately needs to relieve people of these bills, restore a basic sense of public goods and freedom from fear, scarcity, competition, while at the same time even our movements need healing, repair, love. Sorry, a bit of a rant! Lol. Hope this makes some sense. 

SA
You’re both making a lot of sense. Fariha and I talk about the way capitalism almost rewires the brain to be conditioned towards a scarcity consciousness, to vilify poverty, dominate people & nature. So what you’re speaking to – not owing the institutions, but owing each other through compassion, grace, love, it really is ancestral healing work. What would you both say to someone reading this who might be located in a more isolated area, where unionizing is not necessarily an option. How can we begin to nourish the seeds of striking debt in our day to day lives?

L
Very tough and spot on questions. I also want to acknowledge the deep ancestral healing work that we find ourselves in the midst of, as well as the traumas within lineages and generations that to me seem to be at the cusp of curse breaking and change, as well as karmic debts that are being unwoven. As far as the question, the first thing that comes to mind for me is the ability for people to say no. Oftentimes when it comes to things like debt or paying bills, these are obligations that we ‘have’ to abide by in order not to get reprimanded, in trouble or even worse being as though it’s what sustains us and our everyday lives under this capitalistic structure. Thus creating isolation. Now when we think about a structure and body such as a union, collective or whatever the case may be, there is greater solidarity in that. Greater solidarity in a collective no, instead of one individual no where there may be fear involved. But knowing that you have the support and backing of tons of other people who feel and think the same coming together to stand up for what is right. For people who may find themselves isolated around this, we can begin to nourish the seeds of striking debt in our day to day lives by consciously feeling within our mind, body and spirit what resonates and what doesn’t. Taking stock of this and knowing that we have the power to control our lives and it should not be determined or dictated by a boss or obligation that we may have been coerced into doing. I’d also say that although these people may feel alone, that there is a consciousness raising occurring and that when one or two people come together and decide that they will no longer stand for terror, peace can be gained no matter how small. Joining a union like the debt collective or starting to have these conversations in community with others can break down and begin to nourish seeds of change and seeds of refusal to continue to play a part in a world leading nowhere and changing the collective trajectory of our lives, connecting in ways we may have never imagined, but forging bonds and connections through relationships and shared experiences that we ALL have since the creation of time, in one way or another. – sorry this may be very abstract lol I get out there.

W
<3 Lauren

Hmm. Prinita I really like/hate (lol) this idea, but I think you’re right – capitalism forms our brains and bodies in that kind of way. Andrew Ross used to make this joke about why debt organizing is so hard to do, he’d always say that in classical “modern” society the “contract” is something sacred (it’s all we have, in some ways?), and so declaring a debt strike is breaking your contract, going back on your word, which in neoliberal society is right up there with the incest taboo. That always stuck with me, and I’ve noticed over the years that when it comes to debt a transformation of consciousness is absolutely essential. Much like in healing work, being able to dissolve the narrative of “I owe X bank X amount of money because I signed a contract” and realize behind that so-called contract is a relationship of coercion, a whole hundreds and thousands year history of power relationships, is huge. Obviously it’s not enough, creditors have tremendous power over our lives, but beginning to make the mental shift like, shit, actually I don’t owe these mother fuckers anything, it’s huge for people, it’s incredibly liberating. From there it simply becomes a question of how to live a life in the day-to-day to adjust to this reality. And your question is a really big one – I want to ground it in my own personal experience – I’ve been on debt strike for nearly a decade – my credit is fucked, my financial life is a mess, I’ve only really survived due to the generosity of comrades – the early version of a debtors union. Literally friends letting me crash, use their name to get cars, etc. This is only possible in community, the power the creditors have is so massive that to truly resist requires first the mental shift and then the community and power building. So for folks who are isolated, our first hope speaking from the union is that they begin to be exposed to a new narrative – say Bernie & Omar saying college should be free and they shouldn’t be in debt, or by reading the Debt Collective book or other narrative interventions, or some kind of virtual space to realize they didn’t do anything wrong, they don’t “actually” owe these institutions anything, and that a different kind of life is possible. But that doesn’t answer the question about how hard it can be to find this community, to actually debt strike, etc. I think we need to ask those questions together. In my experience healing from my personal & ancestral traumas is SSOOOOOO much work, it’s so fucking hard, and often makes me incapable of going to work, of functioning, requiring so much money in professional help – how can people heal when they owe these debts, are so underpaid, exploited, subject to forms of violence, etc? So in some ways I think the debt question is actually an everything question – like we need movements to fight for medicare for all, to relieve global debt, to abolish the IMF & WB, minimum wage, generous care & leave policies, etc. And at the same time, communities in resistance that people can find when and if they are ready to step a little outside of mainstream thinking around finance, individual success, individual property, etc. 

SA
Lauren, you mentioned ‘karmic debt’, and Winter, you tell of the space needed to realize that those who are indebted ‘didn’t do anything wrong’ & it’s so so moving to me, because when you do inner child work, the work to reparent yourself, the affirmation you usually repeat is one that encourages you to put down the guilt, the shame, the burden of our lineages. So, yes it really is all interconnected. And I sometimes wonder if, before we’re able to get to the point of a global debt strike, the great awakening needs to happen. Which, I definitely think it is. I feel more and more people are becoming conscious and connecting the dots. So much solidarity to you both.

As we end, can you both share three different rituals or practices that have helped you stay grounded over the past two weeks?

L
The interconnectedness is REAL. We’re caught up in so many timelines, experiences and more that all converge, diverge, separate, come together, split apart and it’s all happening simultaneously at once. I agree with you that more and more people are beginning to awaken and connect the dots, so much solidarity to you <3 for me this pandemic has done that for society in many ways, and there have been so many awakenings and even dark ages throughout time that are revisited so we get it right. I believe and hope and pray that this is now the time but we can only continue to pave the way. Three rituals and practices that have helped me stay grounded and connected the past two weeks have been 1. gardening, getting my hands in the dirt, touching the plants and vegetables, seeing and seeding the growth. 2. listening to frequencies and meditating and envisioning 3. Drinking tea and being in the sun with friends, family and community. Staying grounded is one of my biggest challenges. I find myself always in the cosmos but these are some things that help me along the way.

W
Lol Lauren, the cosmos are so beautiful and magical 🙂

Prinita I love what you shared, you are really on to something there with that connection. I think about Thich Nhat Hanh’s encouragement to lead with love and understanding, and everything else will fall into line. And the judgement card in Tarot — it should be the Jubilee card, for after we win the debt strike and all earthly debts are dissolved! Thank you both for this space, I hope this conversation is only just beginning and looking forward to more collaboration. A researcher here in Philly estimates that if 20% of the global population went on debt strike, it would be enough to throw the capitalist markets into complete chaos. So that is a horizon, the global solidarity to force this system to change its core way of operating, and open up new ways of being for us to explore! In terms of staying grounded, I’ve been absolutely in love with Byron Katie’s “The Work” – her four questions to sit in meditation with to deeply examine unconscious beliefs, I’ve been doing this with internalized inner child beliefs but also my own political beliefs, to keep challenging myself to let go of dogmatic narratives. The second is just laying on my couch and putting on the playlists they use for psychedelic journeys, and just letting my mind wander and relax and my body rest. The third is lighting a candle and praying to my Sicilian & Irish and non-blood ancestors, trying to rebuild that connection. What about you, Prinita? 

SA
The past two weeks, waking up at dawn and spending a few hours by myself has been my saviour. I have a lot of trouble staying grounded, my adhd has been sky high lately, so spending time in solitude in the mornings, in prayer and meditation has really been grounding. I’ve also been sleeping really early and taking lots of baths. Trying to find different ways to process the trauma that has been coming up in my body, and it’s been a journey but super rewarding. 

L
Just want to thank you so much for this space, time and opportunity, sending you love and strength. Victory will be upon us 🙂 have a wonderful evening. The gratitude is real and I truly hope that we can connect again and collaborate. Peace and love to you both <3:)

W
Likewise, very grateful for this space, Lauren and I have been trying to find spaces to explore the intersection of our healing work with our movement work, and this has been a true pleasure. Thanks & so great to be in community with you, sending you both lots of love for strong and healthy nervous systems and joyful days. 

Oh! We probably should say how people can get involved in the Debt Collective, lol. Folks can become a member here: https://debtcollective.org/debt-union/. We have both zero-dollar & dues-paying options, and it’s very early in our union-building so we want folks to get involved and build power & the union together <3

L
And one more thing – a link to rsvp for our new member calls for those interested that join and need a place to be welcomed, oriented and learn more about the union! – https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZYtdu2ppzIiEtyjTH2o_b2ttXc1BJuSwCq-

The Debt Collective is a membership-based union for debtors and our allies. Our current economic system forces us into debt in various different areas of our lives: student debt for education; a mortgage to buy a home; debts for utility bills or phone bills, medical care, or even incarceration. No one should have to go into debt to meet their basic needs! These debts are illegitimate and the system needs to change, and we are united to win that change. How? Through the power of our union.

SA
How are you? How are you feeling?

S
I’m grateful to be having a conversation with you that others can witness! So often I’ve felt there are specks of gold here and there that come out when we’re talking on the phone and I keep wishing we could collate those little moments 🌈

I’m also looking forward to talking to your Studio Ānanda audience on a topic that’s so insanely misunderstood i.e. money… And the meaning + identity we attach to it. 

As a world, so many of us have quietly and unconsciously agreed to (for lack of a better term coming to me) “poverty consciousness” and vows of poverty. Especially those of us on a deeply spiritual journey. 

Of course there are so many long standing reasons for this which you guys have addressed in your work and you’ve personally addressed these in your newsletters and your books. 

None of us can be blamed for it as it’s deeply rooted in our societal and familial structures. 

Because of this, we’ve been unaware of our tremendous power in creating a different reality for ourselves and our world. 

SA
Yeah. I thought it was really cool that we were both thinking about ancestral trauma around money and that’s part of the reason I wanted to talk to you/ interview you… how special that as sisters we get to explore this. 

S
So special. Yes we’re releasing old patterns from our DNA right now. Not just you and me… But as a world collective. 

Patterns that have become embedded in us, which aren’t befitting to the greatness of our souls…. Considering the Divine One that made us! 

Yes we can say it’s embedded in the patriarchy and “the less conscious Masculine” (yes aka toxic Masculine which I prefer not to use) ways that have been ruling our planet….

We’ve absolutely been through so much.

And, having said that, I deeply feel and believe that we’ve collectively also somehow… Allowed for this to happen by disowning and unconsciously giving away our power, authority and sovereignty. 

It’s time for us now to acknowledge how we ourselves have contributed to this in some way, small or large. 

It’s empowering because when we realise so much power is in our hands, we can consciously choose to use and direct it for universal good and change 

SA
Let’s get a bit of context on you. You’ve been an entrepreneur in the “healing worlds” for many years. What was the first thing that inspired you to start your own business? Do you remember what inspired you?

S
I never actually understood the concept of a job where you do something you don’t enjoy nor find fulfillment in, just for money to pay your bills, and that repeated, becomes “life.”

I don’t know if you remember our conversations when I was in high school… I was always drawn to the power of the Feminine (and to things that would likely be classified as “witchy”)… How that relates to money and embracing beauty (both represented by Venus). 

These are also the things that I’ve absolutely rebelled against for a long time. That’s a story in itself

In summary, I was feeling that ancient calling to connect to my Feminine in a deeper way because I used to be/am quite the tomboy. 

What’s the word for that these days…? 

Being vacuously beautiful, uninteresting, catty, irrational, overly dramatic and emotional to the point of chaos. Though I had my reasons for it, I feel sad whenever I remember this was what I correlated Femininity with, once. 

As for specific examples of inspiration, there have been many I’m sure… Usually stories of goddesses (E.g when finding out which of the 12 Hawaiian goddess archetypes resonate the most). Though stories from scripture impacted me more than anything, specifically Khadijah peace be upon her. She was the wealthiest woman of her time, wise & gracious. She was her own boss in a time when I imagine she had no other female role models running their own business, and very successfully at that. (She was also a lot older than her spouse while he was in his prime, I related to that too and loved how it took nothing away from her value [value also symbolised by Venus] in her incredible historically significant relationship. Or from her worth.)

Her story allowed me to give myself permission to have a business and be responsible for the money I command.  Prior to this point, our family had instilled in us a belief that an academic career was the only Noble pursuit.  And that money and business were dirty…. I committed to this belief and shunned my interest in anything outside of an academic career. Along with this, I also shunned my passion for the vision I held (helping the world heal by being honest about our need for rest and pleasure, that sexuality and spirituality are one and shunning either is akin to shunning our whole embodied self down…). 

I had a lot of my own shame to confront around money, business…. And then later, what I charge for the receiving of what I offer. Over many years, I took the things that deeply inspired me and got clearer and clearer about what I’m supposed to be doing in the world. For me, it was a long process because I used to labour over everything and take it so seriously… Like it was a matter of life and death to get it right 🙃.  

It isn’t. You grow and your vision evolves alongside you.

SA
I guess this is where it’s really interesting too, because there’s one thing to really follow one’s dreams (which we both did/pursued in very non-traditional paths) but then it’s another to actually make a business and sustain it.

What’s been your journey with financially manifesting your dreams?

S
I was talking just before about embracing the path of the Feminine, all things Venusian and healed the way I thought about business… (Happened over many years) 

[I want to respectfully make sure I mention that when I talk about the Feminine, I refer simply to an energy that I wanted to embrace more of in my life because it felt nurturing, empowering while also freeing rather than draining, constricting and harsh. I want your readers to feel anyone can embrace the Feminine should they wish to] 

When I really embraced and owned that energy in myself and in my life, it allowed me to also acknowledge what I give to those I work with. 

In our world culture, being able to sit with people and truly see the core of their soul while deeply holding them unconditionally with an open heart, without judgement, isn’t valued. 

Yet, ironically I’ve (and I think you would agree) found it to be probably the most healing thing on this planet. I therefore truly believe it deserves to be honoured alongside other professions. 

One of the most challenging steps for me and for many of us is charging what we know something is worth when people don’t want to pay much because it’s not valued work.

I have in the past very quickly guilted myself for needing an energy exchange/something in return. Yet it’s so vital. Otherwise resentment is the natural outcome as our energy reserves aren’t Infinite. These days I have to remind myself how much I do give, the energy it takes to show up as a clear channel and the results of transformation experience by those receiving—this reminds me of the power of the work

SA
But it’s still a challenge right? What challenges do you meet everyday, or on the regular, about self worth?

S
My doubting my self will come up any day I’ve not consciously committed to my daily rituals, from the moment I wake. 

My energetic sensitivity, intense stomach pain from anxiety and food reactions contribute to my self doubting. 

So I spend a significant amount of time in the morning preparing myself energetically, before going onto social media or interacting with anyone, I mean outside of my spouse. 

SA
Financially, what were things you’ve learned along the way that you wish people would’ve told you earlier?

S
These were some of my greatest financial lessons: 

I left a great salary and permanent secure position to begin my business. I’m gifted at saving money and believed that this combined with my fallback income would be enough while establishing my business. It wasn’t.

I actually had to go back into working for others again. So until your business is making the income you desire, it might be imperative to have an income coming in, in the background (amazing if you have passive income or a side gig though most don’t). 

You could also reduce your hours at your current position while transitioning into your business. Having this income gives you financial confidence. 

When we don’t feel confident, we may take on clients that aren’t 100% aligned. Inevitably this is very draining. I’ve learned such a big lesson with this one. 

Something else I did was invest a lot of money, believing that I’d easily make it back as mentors had told me I would. I didn’t and instead went into thousands of dollars in debt.

I didn’t want to ask anyone for help. From this I learned: when I’m investing in anything with the view that I’ll make the money back, you don’t need to know how but simply have a plan to map out and stick to it (re a strategy) before investing any money in anything. This really helps with beginning taking action (again balancing the Masculine with the Feminine) and continuing taking consistent action. 

Have systems around money. I’m a visionary so this applies to others like me. I’m rejuvenated by being in the Feminine – flow, ease and not having to be rigid or linear as it feels stifling. So to allow myself to exist in the Feminine much more and hold my clients from there and call in abundance from there, having Masculine structure/systems are what hold me. Without this dependable feeling of being held, things can feel chaotic for me. 

Also, rest. Money is tied with being able to receive, so giving to yourself allows us to drop into Feminine energy which brings abundance to us, without our having to chase. 

So allow yourself to receive help. Feminine energy thrives on support, being nurtured and held.

One of the craziest things I learned was being abundant meant I had an engaged relationship with money. This included looking at my bank account and watching my incoming and outgoing money down to the last cent which was extraordinarily uncomfortable for me (and using systems for these – in a way that works for you).

✨✨✨To give generously I need to generously give to my own soul just as much – so I can sustain my giving. As I have such a huge vision when it comes to how much I want to give. When I didn’t honour myself, I kept burning out.

SA
Do you feel like you’re burning out less these days? Have you found some rituals to ground you with money? 

S
Yes I’ve got more energy these days with a sleep ritual and consciously winding down before bed… Making time to witness and hold space for our emotions is so important I’m realising.

These are the money rituals (along with context behind how I came to believe it’s important) that have helped me better my relationship to money

1. I was very involved in a lot of giving back to our community up until University, and began to see a lack of honesty amongst service oriented/spiritually inclined people about their needs for fear of looking greedy or not being self sacrificial enough. I have a theory that many of those creating discord in the world are full of resentful themselves. So my first practice is: raw honesty with myself about my own capacity and when I need to stop; choosing the lifestyle that resonates with me from a place of abundance, believing there’s enough for everyone while healing my shame and guilt around choosing ease and joy 
2. Growing up I believed that an abundance mindset meant to never count your money but to only give it away without keeping record of what I’m giving. When I began studying the abundance mindset,  I realised that I was actually not looking at my money out of fear of facing it and alsoI found it so boring 😜. Those who live with a healthy relationship to money have an actual relationship to money. They look at it, acknowledge it, feel grateful for it and are clear about their outgoing and incoming money keeping a meticulous record
3. Living a life committed to joy and ease by rewriting old narratives I have about myself. 

SA
What’s some advice you’d give to anyone trying to start their own healing business?

S
If I had to say the most important thing, even after everything I’ve mentioned above, I’d say to focus completely on your own knowing and vision. 

Don’t be giving yourself reason to doubt your own vision because of what someone else has done or constantly pitting yourself against others. 

No one else can see the vision that we have for our mission and business and this can certainly feel like a lonely path to walk when it feels like people don’t understand.

Do absolutely whatever it takes to stay focused in your own lane. I don’t believe any measure taken is too drastic. We’re deep feelers with a big mission. Focusing on the mission single mindedly helps us channel our energy and emotions into it, amplifying it

(she/her) – Relationship Alchemist & Energy Healer. 

Samia is fiercely passionate about helping highly spiritual individuals integrate their sexuality with their spirituaity; their shadows with their light, into a balanced whole. From this grounded place, she helps people step into their authentic goddess energy and call in their soul aligned partner. 

Samia’s professional training include Psychology (University of New South Wales), Certified Energy Healer in 4 Energy Healing modalities (including Theta & Sacred Soul Alignment), Art of Feminine Presence Teacher & Certified Mastercoach. 

Samia uses the science of understanding personality through astrology (in a non future predictive way) when working with clients. 

Samia currently lives in Sydney Australia & partially grew up in Canada with Bengali roots. She now works with people from all over the world.

SA
Hey Anna (brother). Can you describe your spirit today, using 5 words? 

P
Great and interesting question! Centred, gracious, positive, thoughtful and saved!

SA
Grace is something we all need a lot of right now, for ourselves and each other. Paige, your wife, was driving me home a few weeks ago and mentioned that you have started leading a Young Professionals night with the young adults you fellowship with. I’ve been exasperated, searching for answers when it comes to business and economic models… Amma has worked in a bank for the past 20ish years, so we have always been kind of exposed to the (for me abstract) concepts of personal wealth, mortgages, debt and saving etc. As you reflect now, what does financial healing mean to you?

P
I think you’re spot on – grace for those working from home, frontline workers who are on the ground, in the thick of it and those who have really been struggling to find work through this crazy 12 months. When it comes to our own financial healing, I believe grace plays an integral part. We need to learn how to forgive ourselves, lower the expectations we place on ourselves and show ourselves grace in situations that are potentially quite complex and generational. Many migrant families, like you said, grew up seeing parents work hard, in jobs that potentially weren’t where they were necessarily hoping they would end up in. Yet to provide and survive, we saw our parents get into debt early, take on high-interest mortgages due to lack of sound advice and fail to understand the importance of financial health. Experiencing these struggles can unfortunately create wounds within us that manifest as trauma as we start dealing with finances. I believe that in regards to this trauma, healing should start within us before it can affect our finances. So I started a Young Professionals group after I really felt God revealed to me that maybe finances were the product of a life lived with purpose, intentionality and creativity. When I’ve shifted my focus from my finances to purposeful work, I’ve noticed that I positioned myself for healing financial trauma that may have been inflicted on me by myself or others. In a nutshell, financial healing to me, as a follower of Jesus, means recognising that my finances aren’t the answer, nor are they mine – but they are given to me to steward well, love others with and build the Earth to look more like heaven! Once I realised this, I was able to address the trauma with an empowered mindset.

SA
I totally agree that it is a journey that begins inwardly, and happens holistically. For me, at least, looking at how I navigated my financial situation was a piece of the puzzle in understanding where the void came from. I do believe that centering passion and service in a ‘career’ is helpful in shifting that mindset. However, I also believe that the structures that exist in this modern world, let’s speak specifically to Australia, systems exist to keep some communities back in the ways that they exploit them etc. Which is why, for example, many Indigenous Australians do not have accumulated wealth – because the Australian Government set up a scheme to save the income of Indigenous people, known as ‘stolen wages’, and then ended up using it to fund infrastructure… which is a whole other conversation, but all that to say – for many, financial healing cannot happen because of the conditions of the material world… so, what are some ways that you began to heal that for yourself as an individual? 

P
Yeah, wow – that is actually really sad. To be totally honest, I did not know that information about ‘stolen wages’ and will definitely be reading into that to try and understand the struggle. I think for me, wealth doesn’t necessarily start or stop at money. It’s a sad concept that financial status (often addressed as “wealth”) is often envied or despised depending on where the person sits within the continuum however I believe that financial status is a product of a broken system where capitalism overshadows individualism and creativity. Wealth to me looks like my family, my community and living a life that leaves a legacy. I say this to suggest that personally, my healing came from knowing who I truly was and discovering my own self-worth, void of status, materials or influence. When I knew that who I was enough as I was, I was able to come to a place where I could focus my energy on my own race, not the rat race. I’m not able to speak to those who are held back by the system, because if I’m truly honest I don’t feel as though this has been my experience but what I do believe is that healing comes without materialism. We don’t need tangible products, we need a transformed spirit. 

SA
Thanks for being so open and honest. Healing cannot be bought or sold!! For those of us who are well resourced mentally, emotionally, spiritually – the hope is to be awakened to having the power and the right to do it. It comes with the peeling back of layers of conditioning, wounding, trauma, but… it is possible.

Ok so I wanna ask you about the prosperity gospel… Lol! How do you feel about it, as a church goer? Do you think it’s manipulative to preach that blessings will be bestowed if you can commit to supporting a physical structure? Do you think this breeds a culture of toxic positivity.. 

P
Love it! The prosperity gospel HAS to make an appearance when speaking about finances in the Church but I think that’s an interesting dynamic right? Unfortunately, there’s a bad taste that’s been left by the Church, in the mouths of many churched and unchurched people because of the often controversial conversation around finances and I for one, want to apologise on behalf of the Church to anyone who has felt that pressure to give with the promise of false prosperity. Do I believe in prosperity and blessing? 1000%. Is it a reaction from God in relation to our financial giving? I don’t think so. My belief of finances, in and to the church, is that everything I have belongs to God, and has been given to me to steward well. When I give to the church – I am simply giving back to God, through the church, what has been given to me with the mindset that my finance will bless others through the increased exposure and footprint the church has in the world. More often than not, my money can go further than I can. Now, I believe that God blesses those who are a blessing but I don’t believe that the idea of prosperity is pragmatic and one should never ever look at financing the church as a return on investment. Paige and I have been faithful with our own giving and, simultaneously, have been blessed incredibly but I wouldn’t say this is because of our faithfulness, but because of God’s faithfulness. I believe that if He so willed it, He would choose to bless us regardless of our giving, if it meant that we could be a blessing to others. I think the prosperity gospel definitely breeds toxic positivity and one thing that I’m SO passionate about in the Australian Church is re-learning the art of lament, what to do when you’re disappointed or angry at God and learning how to sit in the discomfort of many situations. 

SA
Right, showing up in a way that is unconditional and based on love instead of profit and consumption and security. That switch from scarcity to abundance is so crucial to have a faith that is free flowing and not fear and anxiety based. Which is basically what the prosperity gospel teaches. I really like ‘the art of lament’. That’s a really important, difficult yes, but important emotion to grasp. As we near the end of our time, can you talk to me about three of your favourite grounding practices that you turn to daily?

P
I love my daily morning time spent reading my Bible. I make it a non-negotiable to spend at least 5 minutes (it’s hard when you have a near-one year old child rearing to go) soaking it in and helping me centre on the vision for my life. I also love meditation and prayer – for me this is taking some time to focus on what I read, what it means to me and how it can shape me so that I can shape my world. Through my day, I always find time to recentre where I am, simply by having a conversation with God. I also love journaling – often I find it hard to articulate my thoughts, feelings and plans however since I’ve started journaling, I have found an ability to reach a higher state of understanding as I download my thoughts every morning. It helps me “self-audit” where I really am emotionally, spiritually and psychologically and I can often tangibly read this to reflect and identify any areas I potentially may need to refuel!

is the Young Adults Pastor at Elevation Church Hills. He is a trained exercise physiologist and is dedicated to uplifting the emerging generation through the mission of Christ.

SA
Hi Michelle 🙂

M
Hi! Prinita, nice to e-meet! 

SA
I wanna say firstly, I’m a really big fan of your work. I’ll speak more to why as the conversation progresses, but I am so grateful to be speaking to you this morning. Thank you for being here. If you could describe your spirit right now using your five senses, what would she feel/smell/taste/look/sound like?

M
It’s my pleasure! Thank you for thinking of me. My spirit smells like vetiver, tastes like water, looks like the flicker of light in a prism, sounds like afternoon sunlight kissing a plant’s leaves. And she feels like mercury 🙂 

SA
So beautiful, thanks for sharing. I am going to get right into it with the questions. I came to Holisticism last year, stumbled upon your account and then just inhaled so much more of the work you all were doing. At that point I was still living in New York and trying to figure out the best way to be a creative in 2020 and make money for my work while I was simultaneously healing, having a bunch of debt etc. I have engaged with so much of your work but want to know, personally, how did you arrive at Holisticism? How many times did you have to stop and rejig your structure to keep up with both your internal and the external journey?

M
That means so much to hear you say that. Thank you. Holisticism has been a stop on the winding road of my life that I’ve enjoyed so very much. I’ve always been spiritual (my mom took me and my sisters to psychics when we were growing up, and I always really resonated with spiritual practices) and I’ve also always been interested in the idea of well-being.

I was diagnosed with epilepsy when I was 17, and that really threw my life for a loop. I’d been training and planning to graduate high school to become a professional ballet dancer, and then all of the sudden my perfectly obedient body started doing things without my permission or consent. I was put on a really heavy prescription drug to manage my seizures which changed my mood and personality, and one of the side effects was brain damage and the obliteration of my short term memory. 

My life took a turn as I figured out my health, I moved to NYC (my one true love!), and eventually found myself in the alt wellness space doing yoga, seeing energy practitioners, getting acupuncture. I eventually found a practitioner who… basically did an energy healing on me, and I haven’t had a seizure since. (That was 8-ish years ago)

I felt so lucky and also so guilty that I had so much access to alternative solutions to help me heal and become the fullest version of myself. I just wanted to create something that would make well-being in all its facets — from the socio-political, to the psychological, to the physical, to the spiritual — more accessible to more people. 

Holisticism’s path has waxed and waned but I really love where we are now, 4.5 years later! 

SA
Such an incredible journey you’re on. I’m so moved to hear about the healing process of your epilepsy. One thing that immediately captured me about the podcast is how you speak with such a true and generous spirit that comes from the fact that you have grazed up against physical hardship, perhaps even death, and are really trying to share how you overcame and built forward. It resonates with me deeply, Fariha and I started Studio Ānanda as two South Asians, originally from Australia, queer, who grew up in households where incestuous abuse was rife. So that intention to create something that is truly accessible, truly recognises that all of us have the right to heal, is something that I feel so deeply.

What does financial healing mean to you?

M
Wow, what an incredible place for you to both operate from. I always find the people who are the most compassionate are the ones who’ve been the most hurt and truly experience grief. 

Financial healing… wheeeeew. It means a lot! I guess from a communal and global perspective, I think that financial healing means that we’ll open our eyes to the collective delusion that is “money” and recognize that we’ve imparted “value” into pretty arbitrary things… and that it’s not working so well for us, ecologically. 

From a personal perspective, I think that financial healing encompasses a lot. First (maybe? I guess we start somewhere) we have to acknowledge that we live in a capitalistic society, and we participate in continuing oppression because capitalism as we know it is an oppressive force. I think that’s really challenging for sensitive people to come to terms with, which is why many of us eschew “wealth” and enter industries that are stereotypically underpaid. (Artists, healers, birth and death workers, caregivers, etc.) 

So that’s tough! And then we also have to just note for ourselves that money is like, WAY MORE than just energy! Like, wow, I have so much trauma and pain and stuff around money. It’s very emotional for so many of us. And gaslighting ourselves into saying money is just “energy,” so we should just “get” it … that doesn’t seem helpful or self-honoring to me. 

Financial healing means acknowledging these complexities — the humanness of all this stuff — and coming to the conclusion that we deserve to live a life where we are well-resourced. Full stop. 

SA
Ahhh! I really needed to hear you say that money is way more than just energy. I’ve been seeing so much in wellness circles about that concept that one should just let money flow through them, but you’re right, there is so much trauma around money. Whether it is inheriting debt, being under resourced etc. It is more than energy, it can be a tangibly paralyzing force.

Do you think that committing to building a business based on the principles of anti capitalism can only happen if we ourselves are doing the internal work to heal?

M
Right?? It dysregulates me so much to see that on the internet. I’m like nooooooooo please!!!!! There’s so much more! 

Here’s the thing — I think that capitalism doesn’t have to be evil and oppressive, but the current way we experience it IS. And it perpetuates oppression. But I prefer the term capitalism critical, because I’m not sure that the whole system is one that we need to absolutely throw away. TBD, I might change my mind on that. 

But yes, I think we’re inculcated in individualistic thinking that supports oppressive capitalistic behaviors, and we really need to check ourselves and do our own work to move towards a more circular economic model and system of support. 

For example, I’m a business owner who uses a sliding scale for everything I do. And when in the right hands, the sliding scale is AMAZING! It supports the community members who need a little help, it supports that person making the product or service, and it really bonds the community. But in the hands of someone who’s still prioritizing themselves at the cost of others, it becomes this thing of, “Well, if I can get this service for a cheaper price… why would I pay full price??” 

So for capitalism-critical businesses to exist, consumers need to be enrolled in a capitalism-critical perspective too. 

SA
I like this term ‘capitalism critical’ because the reality is, none of us are truly absolved and it does offer a different entry point in reworking the system instead of completely disregarding it.

You speak of the importance of moving towards a circular economic model and system of support. What does that look like to you, day to day, at Holisticism? How did you arrive with the team you are working towards + how important is it to know that you are working with others who are spiritually invested?

M
I am so lucky to have an amazing team of collaborators. It’s really important that people who work with us at Holisticism are on the same page around self-knowledge. If you don’t have a “spiritual” practice, that’s totally cool and none of my business! But having a general leaning towards enthusiastic curiosity is pretty much a non negotiable. 

Moving towards a more circular, caring economy at our business means a couple of things. First, we start with our people. We do not treat people like productivity machines. We do mental health checks, we have a ton of flexibility in the way we work, and we try to put people in their zone of genius so they really love the work they do. We don’t believe in a sense of urgency or emergency, so we create a work environment that doesn’t have space for last minute mistakes or issues by really working in advance as often as we can. 

It also means that we don’t just want to grow for the sake of growth. Accumulation just because is like… literally the worst part of capitalism. Well maybe not the worst, but one of the worst aspects. So we’re not trying to acquire tons of new customers and students. Instead, we’d like to focus on retention, creating real relationships with our community, and creating a mutually supportive reciprocal relationship that provides value to all involved. 

I’m far from perfect at all this, but it’s what we’re working toward. I still make a ton of mistakes and have to shake off my old tech-world ideas about mega-growth sometimes. It also means that we sometimes let people down… they want us to be bigger than we are, have more capacity than we have. The truth is we’re just 4 people. 

SA
Woah, I’m so inspired right now. Thank you for sharing with such transparency. There is so much intention that is put into, and is transmuted through your work. Knowing that you’re a team of four, is truly mind blowing. I am so curious to know how, when you began, you managed with funding. Is your model based on community reciprocity, have you had to compromise or negotiate with investors whose values don’t align with your own? What has that process been like?

M
I know! I think that people think we’re bigger than we are — we actually only have two full time people (me and Wallis) and my other two team members are part time! It’s awesome what you can get done when you use magic 🙂 

Ah, when I first got started I actually built software to help practitioners run the backends of their businesses virtually. It was a very techy play, and I ended up getting selected for a few tech accelerators who really pushed me to raise money from investors. I ended up going through the fundraising process, getting some checks, and realizing it really wasn’t for me. (it was also an absolute nightmare… more on that another day!) 

I was privileged enough to have money coming in from full-time freelancing work I did, so I was able to go back to the people who’d pledged money and give them their checks back. I gave myself like, 2 months to figure out how to make Holisticism revenue positive on my own. That was hard and scary… I was worried I wasn’t gonna be able to do it, that I’d have to fold the whole thing, that I’d spend my life working for people I didn’t respect who didn’t care about what I cared about. But obviously, I figured it out. I think that building the community for the 2 years prior to that really positioned me to be in a good place when it came to finally monetizing the work. 

SA
What an empowering moment, to hand the checks back. I listened to a Twelfth House podcast a few months ago on using the Akasha to help make decisions in your business, and that inherent connection and reliance on spirit, as opposed to ‘investors’ was language that I needed. 

Can you speak a little about how your relationship with social media and the internet has changed over the years as a content creator? For me, beginning Studio Ananda as an IG account was daunting because of how much fragmentation I’ve experienced in online spaces. After engaging with your work, and the work of other cyber doulas and healers, I’ve figured out how to better navigate the space. What advice do you have for multi hyphenates who are still a little bit terrified of the internet as a portal to assist their ecosystems?

M
It was empowering NOW but back then I was like… Pellizzon, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!?!? It’s pretty well known in the startup world that your first biz is kind of like your “burner” business, where you make lots of connections and make mistakes and then your next project is what people really jump on for. I was very nervous to sort of “burn the boats” and turn my back on that world in a way. 

Yes! I sort of hate instagram. When I worked in tech I learned a lot about algorithms, and I think that has helped me take things from Facebook and Instagram less personally (for example, if my reach is down… that’s not like Facebook has a personal vendetta against me. Probably…) 

My primary goal is to be prolific. All of my favorite creators were prolific with their work. So for me, that means putting myself in the space to be a prolific creator — finding the platforms and the tools and the stories that excite me. The wonderful thing about 2021 is that we have SO MANY platforms to choose from. We don’t need to be married to just one. We can find the spaces that feel cozy and nurturing to us, and hang out there. In fact, we can create those spaces for ourselves. 

Something that I always have to work on is not taking the opinions and perceptions of others on the internet so personally. I find it very difficult to be seen. I’m really sensitive. My gut reaction is to either crumble or build a hard concrete shell when someone tells me they don’t like me, or they think I’m a bad person, or something else that hurts me. The way I’m working with that right now is by just trying to show up as a person. As a whole human, who has all of these archetypes and characters and feelings inside of her. I don’t want to be one thing. And I tell myself, if I show up with all of myself, and people still only one to see that one singular dimension of who I am or who they perceive me to be… I can’t control that. But at least I can remind myself that I’m more than just one thing. I hope we can all find more nuance and comfort in the grey spaces. It seems that we’re pushing further into distorted either-or thinking. 

SA
Mm yes, that awareness that we all hold multitudes that cannot ever be concentrated into an online persona or business is something I am moving through myself right now. Thank you for such a hopeful response.

As we come to an end, I would love to know what grounding practices have been coming through for you over the past week? The full moon really blew me away this week, what practices do you come back to for restorative energy?

M
Dude, I felt that! I think I cried 3x a day last week. I couldn’t help it. 

I love setting up and cleaning my altars. Looooove it. I love lighting the incense, filling the bowls with water, adding new candles and flowers, and then honoring whoever the altar is for. 

I’ve also been thinking a lot about death, tbh. I know! Not sexy or cool, but I feel like acknowledging mortality is necessary when things feel so … big. 

Last week I had this big break — I felt like, I feel so many things, I feel so much. How can I continue? There is so much I’ve yet to experience — how will I be able to get through it? How will I be able to be resilient? What if I can’t? And that was kind of the breakthrough… I am alive. I am alive to feel all of these feelings, to experience all of this. This is the why. And that made those intense feelings feel a little more palatable, almost like a gift. 

Also, chocolate helps.

is a business witch who loves systems and spells
You can typically find her at Holisticism or gabbing on the Twelfth House podcast, but she also teaches classes on Notion for creative, squiggly brained people.